Now
that he’s allowed to run for office again, former Brazilian President Luiz Inácio
Lula da Silva, 75, is preparing his political comeback.
About Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva
Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, 75, is a founding
member of Brazil's Worker's Party. Lula shaped the country for a decade and a
half -- from 2003 as president and from 2011 as mentor to his designated
successor, Dilma Rousseff, who was removed from office by parliament in 2016.
On March
8, a Supreme Court judge overturned all the corruption convictions against
Lula. On March 23, the high court also declared that the judge in the case,
Sergio Moro, had been biased. Moro, who had convicted da Silva of corruption,
was later appointed justice minister by President Jair Bolsonaro. This is
Lula’s first interview since the decision. It was conducted via Zoom because an
in-person meeting wasn’t possible given that the coronavirus pandemic is
currently out of control in Brazil.
Lula is
now eligible to challenge the incumbent president in next year’s national
election. If he runs, it would be a great political battle for Brazil’s future,
putting the far-right populist against his social democratic predecessor.
DER SPIEGEL 13/2021
The article you are reading originally
appeared in German in issue 13/2021 (March 27, 2021) of DER SPIEGEL.
DER
SPIEGEL: Mr. president, you were in prison
the last time you were interviewed by
DER SPIEGEL two years ago. Today, you’re a free man and you can run for
political office again. Are you satisfied?
Lula: It’s sad that it took the judiciary so long to
reach this decision. They were already aware of the information that led to
this verdict in 2016. My opponents spent five years trying to destroy the image
of Lula, to portray me and my party as corrupt. I am happy that faith in
justice has been restored. But Judge Moro should not go unpunished – nor should
the prosecutors who spread so many lies. They should lose their jobs. There was
a pact between the judiciary and some media to remove President Dilma Rousseff
from office and prevent my candidacy in 2018. Moro was part of that, and he was
partisan.
DER
SPIEGEL: Will you run against Bolsonaro in
the presidential elections next year?
Lula: We shouldn’t be discussing candidacies in the
middle of the pandemic. Yesterday, on Tuesday, 3,158 people died of COVID in
Brazil. It is the biggest genocide in our history. Our attention right now
should not be on next year’s election – it should be on fighting the virus and
vaccinating the population. We have to save Brazil from COVID-19.
DER
SPIEGEL: President Bolsonaro has consistently
dismissed the virus as a "little flu.” Recently, he has been wearing a
mask and even spoke out in favor of vaccinations for the first time in a
televised speech.
Lula: A president does not have to know everything.
But he should have the humility to consult people who know better than he does.
He should talk to scientists, doctors, governors and health ministers to come
up with a plan to beat COVID. Even if, for the first time, Bolsonaro didn't
spread any foolishness in his speech yesterday, he still is not taking COVID
seriously.
Bild
vergrößern
President
Bolsonaro flanked by his wife Michelle and General Walter Souza Braga Netto: "A
president does not have to know everything. But he should have the humility to
consult people who know better than he does."
Foto: Pablo Jacob / Zuma / imago images
DER
SPIEGEL: How can you tell?
Lula: He doesn't believe in vaccination. He spent a
fortune on a drug called hydroxychloroquine even though it has been proven that
it does nothing. He has mocked anyone who uses a mask as a faggot. He didn’t
take this virus seriously for a year and told us lies. He spent a year
provoking everyone who disagreed with him. If he actually cared about the
people, he would have set an example and immediately put on a mask and avoided
creating crowds. If he had any gravitas, he would have apologized yesterday to
the families of the 300,000 COVID dead and the millions infected. He is
responsible for this.
DER
SPIEGEL: Because the virus is circulating
almost freely in Brazil, aggressive new mutants have appeared in the country,
which is also dangerous for the rest of the world. Are you hoping for support
from the international community against Bolsonaro?
Lula: We as Brazilians are responsible for stopping
this man and restoring democracy in the country. We don’t need help from abroad
for that. Brazil will not be able to endure it any longer if this man continues
to govern the way he is. Never before in our history have we had a president
who was this irresponsible.
Related Article
DER
SPIEGEL: Then why isn’t there more political
resistance to Bolsonaro in the country?
Lula: The media in Brazil have criminalized politics.
The battle against corruption is important, but all the corruption trials have
resulted in the election of a man who pretended that he wasn't a politician. He
won elections based on hate and he governs based on hate. Anyone who says
anything critical about Bolsonaro is persecuted and threatened by his
supporters. Bolsonaro is backed by right-wing militias. He has instilled fear
in society and it is numb. Add to that the fact that people can’t take to the
streets because of corona. The most important thing to do is to hammer it into
people’s heads that Brazil doesn’t deserve Bolsonaro.
An Appeal to Angela
Merkel, a Letter to Xi Jinping
DER
SPIEGEL: Is it true that you personally
lobbied Russian President Vladimir Putin and Chinese leader Xi Jinping for the
delivery of vaccines?
Lula: I wrote a letter to Xi Jinping and met with
representatives from the Russian fund responsible for the distribution of the
Sputnik V vaccine. Bolsonaro and his supporters have been spreading word on the
internet that people who take the Chinese vaccine are implanted with a chip and
that the one from BioNTech can turn people into crocodiles. Those are the kinds
of lies we have to deal with here. I have asked Putin and Xi Jinping to ignore
the insults coming from Bolsonaro and his foreign minister when Brazil asks for
vaccine.
Bild
vergrößern
The coronavirus is spreading rapidly in Brazil, with more than 3,000 deaths
in a period of 24 hours.
Foto: MICHAEL DANTAS / AFP
DER
SPIEGEL: The richest countries have secured
the most vaccine doses around the world. How can poorer countries also obtain
sufficient amounts of vaccine?
Lula: Everyone must have access to the vaccines. We
need to break the pharmaceutical companies' patents on vaccines. This is a good
for all of humankind. A handful of industrialists should not be allowed to use
it to enrich themselves. We cannot allow the commercial interests of this or
that manufacturer to take precedence over the interests of humanity. This is a
humanitarian decision – it has nothing to do with socialism. Humanity is at
stake.
DER
SPIEGEL: You need cooperation from wealthy
countries for such an approach.
Lula: That is why I would like to use this interview
to appeal to Angela Merkel for an international meeting of the most important
heads of government to discuss this issue. She is respected around the world.
Such a meeting could take place within the framework of the G-7 or the G-20, or
an extraordinary virtual General Assembly of the United Nations could be
convened. Someone just has to take the initiative. It disturbs me that people
only care about what is happening in their own backyards. No single country is
capable of solving the problem on its own. Even Germany and France lack
vaccine. That’s unbelievable!
"It disturbs me that people only
care about what is happening in their own backyards."
DER
SPIEGEL: Why has there not been an
international initiative so far?
Lula: Because the political leaders are fighting about
other things. Trump did an enormous amount of damage when he declared China the
enemy. Biden is calling Putin a murderer. This is no way for statesmen to treat
each other. What is still needed to finally come to a decision and stop blaming
each other? During the 2008 financial crisis, when Lehman Brothers went
bankrupt, we immediately called a G-20 meeting. Someone needs to pick up the
phone and organize a meeting to discuss how to stop the spread of the virus.
After that, we can go back to our political squabbles.
DER
SPIEGEL: One study has accused Bolsonaro of
deliberately helping to spread the virus. What is the reason for his behavior?
Lula: He governs for a small, radicalized part of the
population that represents 25, maybe 30 percent of society. They are people who
don’t believe in democracy. This man hasn’t even sat down with a serious
business owner in the two years he has been in office. He has never even talked
about productivity or economic growth. He has never met with the unions or with
the social movements. He is only comfortable with the military.
Bild
vergrößern
Chancellor
Merkel and President Lula in 2008 in Brazil: "She is respected around the
world."
Foto: STRINGER/BRAZIL/ REUTERS
DER
SPIEGEL: Around 60 petitions for Bolsonaro's
impeachment have been filed by members of Brazilian congress, but the president
of parliament has taken no action. Why not?
Lula: Because the president of Congress, who has the
majority of its members behind him, agrees in large parts with Bolsonaro's
economic policy. The Brazilian elite, financial system and banks support his
economic policies, as do the media. Yet he has no economic policy plan. He just
wants to privatize all state-owned companies. It’s like a newly married,
unemployed man sitting in his new house with his new wife and telling her: Look
for work? Yeah, right! Let’s just sell the bed, the fridge and the TV.
Is It Possible to Repeat
an Economic Miracle?
DER
SPIEGEL: Under your government, 20 million
people were elevated out of poverty. There was a commodities boom at the time,
but that is now over. Is it possible to repeat such an economic miracle?
Lula: I sometimes joke that the people want to go back
to the past of the Lula administration. They say that technological
developments have changed the working world. Before our interview, I watched a
documentary film about Uber drivers who won a lawsuit over poor working
conditions. There are millions of people working at Amazon and in e-commerce
who don’t even have the right to take a vacation. People who work for apps have
no weekends, no vacations and no social security. Everyone should go back and
watch the film "Modern Times” by Charlie Chaplin to understand what is happening
in the world right now.
Bild
vergrößern
Lula
during his Zoom interview with DER SPIEGEL: "I have barely left the house
in over a year."
Foto: Ricardo Stuckert
DER
SPIEGEL: That app economy is particularly
strong in Brazil. Do you want greater government influence?
Lula: In contrast to Germany, where there is a
functioning sewage system, social housing and a good highway and railway
network, we still have to build everything here. There is plenty of room for
public investment. If the government doesn’t push it, then how will the private
sector create jobs that pay decent wages? If we have growth, foreign companies
will come and invest in Brazil again. No one goes into a country where poverty,
hunger and crime reign.
DER
SPIEGEL: Brazil is deeply divided, with the
two camps viewing each other with hostility. How do you intend to overcome that
polarization?
Lula: The hatred toward my Worker’s Party is fanned
because it represents social inclusion. Brazil has the weight of the legacy of
350 years of slavery on its shoulders. "The Masters and the Slaves” is the
name of a famous book about colonial society in Brazil. It’s still a reality.
The residents of the mansion won’t accept having the residents of the slave
cabin move up even just one step on the social ladder. That’s what is dividing
this country and the reason so many people are against me. We governed for
everyone, but the poor have always been our priority. If the poor don’t share
in the wealth of the country, there is no way out for this country.
Is There a Danger of a
Coup in Brazil?
DER
SPIEGEL: Bolsonaro has brought many military
officers into his government and he often attacks democracy. After the storming
of the Capitol Building in Washington, he said that things could get even worse
in Brasília if there is any doubt about the outcome of the next elections. Is
there a danger of a coup?
Lula: I should actually be able to say no to that. But
I also didn’t believe that my successor Dilma Rousseff would be removed from
office. Nor did I think that Brazilians would elect a man like Bolsonaro. We
need to say loud and clear that we will stand up against any coup attempt –
because Bolsonaro doesn’t know how to govern democratically. He does not
respect the basic principles of democracy. In Bolsonaro’s world, there is no
room for two teams. He doesn’t want any opponents. He wants to win the game
before it has even started.
DER
SPIEGEL: In the U.S., Trump supporters
stormed the Capitol because they didn’t accept the election results. Would
Brazil’s military back Bolsonaro in a coup attempt?
Lula: The Brazilian people are the ones who will
defeat Bolsonaro. He can start preparing to drape the presidential sash over
his successor. The democrats will win, the parties of the left will win. They
will provide the next president and that president will get Brazil back on its
feet.
"We need to say loud and clear that
we will stand up against any coup attempt."
DER
SPIEGEL: Your Workers’ Party, in particular,
is not well liked in military circles.
Lula: I had an extraordinarily good relationship with
the military while I was president. I always treated them very well. I
re-equipped the army, navy and air force and even paid the recruits the minimum
wage. But the military doesn’t have to like me. They are supposed to defend the
country against possible external enemies and respect the constitution.
DER
SPIEGEL: If you run, will you assemble a
broad opposition alliance that also includes centrist parties? In 2002, you won
the election because you positioned yourself as "Lula Paz e Amor,” as a
reconciliation candidate of peace and love.
Lula: That’s also how I am in my private life. I can’t
help it. At some point, a moment will come like in 2002, when I succeeded in
getting José Alencar, a great entrepreneur, to be my candidate for vice
president. We made a pact between capital and labor. You have to have a clear
program of what you want to do with the country and then gather the political
forces to support you. The PT will present its program and explore possible
alliances.
DER
SPIEGEL: The elections are still a year and
half away, but it feels like the campaign has already begun. There have been
death threats against you. Are you afraid to go out on the street?
Lula: I’m not worried about that. I have barely left
the house in over a year. I am patiently waiting to get the second dose of my
vaccine so that I can finally drive across the country again.
DER
SPIEGEL: Mr. President, we thank you for this
interview.
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