Interview with John Bolton"Trump
Is Capable of Almost Anything"
John Bolton,
71, served as U.S. President Donald Trump's national security advisor from 2018
to 2019. In a DER SPIEGEL interview, he speaks about Trump's relationship with
women leaders and the roots of his conflict with German Chancellor Angela
Merkel.
Interview Conducted by Susanne Koelbl und René Pfister
17.07.2020, 17.29 Uhr
John
Bolton in the Oval Office in 2019: "Part of Trump's difficulty with
international affairs is his lack of any philosophical basis. He has no
philosophy."
Foto:
Doug
Mills / NYT / Redux / laif
DER SPIEGEL: Mr. Bolton, Donald Trump had already begun firing barbs at German
Chancellor Angela Merkel back when he was still one of many Republican
candidates for president. Merkel's refugee policies, he said at the time, had
been a "disaster for Germany." Do we have the wrong impression, or is
Trump rather obsessed with the German chancellor.arten auf Trump
Bolton: Trump's
relationships with Chancellor Merkel and (former British Prime Minister)
Theresa May were two of the most difficult that I saw. I think there's an
element of increased difficulty with female foreign leaders. But with Merkel,
it's kind of complicated - the president's father was German, so that might
have something to do with it. But there are also political reasons. U.S.-EU
trade relations have been a major source of controversy between the U.S. and
Germany. Then there is the issue of support for NATO and the agreement that
each member state would spend 2 percent of GDP on defense, which Germany is
behind on.
DER SPIEGEL: Trump, though, has similar conflicts with a number of other world
leaders. Could it be that he simply has a problem with women?
Bolton: I do
think that is a factor. But he has a problem with a lot of democratically
elected leaders, male or female. He seems to have better relations with
authoritarian figures than with many who are elected in democratic countries.
DER SPIEGEL: How would you explain that?
Bolton: Part of
Trump's difficulty with international affairs is his lack of any philosophical
basis. He has no philosophy. That was a complicating factor across the board. I
am a conservative Republican. He is not. But he's not a liberal Democrat
either. He tends to confuse personal relationships with foreign leaders with
the underlying bilateral relationship between the U.S. and that country.
DER SPIEGEL 30/2020Foto:
SVC.OrisWFL
The article you are reading originally
appeared in German in issue 30/2020 (July 18, 2020) of DER SPIEGEL.
DER SPIEGEL: In her visits to the U.S., Merkel intentionally presented herself as
a kind of anti-Trump, such as in the speech she held at Harvard University,
during which she sang the praises of multilateralism. Was Trump annoyed by
that?
Bolton: No,
because I don't think he knows what multilateralism is.
DER SPIEGEL: Why does Trump show no interest in cooperation with America's
long-time partners?
Bolton: There is
a constant effort by political commentators in the U.S. and Europe to
understand Trump or to define a Trump Doctrine. Stop wasting your time! There
isn't any Trump Doctrine. The decision you get in the morning on an issue could
be different in the afternoon, largely dependent on political considerations.
He is primarily interested in his reelection.
DER SPIEGEL: In Europe, there was significant deliberation regarding how best to
approach Trump. French President Emmanuel Macron, for example, invited Trump
and First Lady Melania to a swanky restaurant in the Eiffel Tower. Merkel,
though, didn't even make an effort to coddle him. Which approach is better?
Bolton: Everybody
has to pick what they feel most comfortable with. I think Macron thought that
if he could establish a good personal relationship with Trump, he could
translate that into an advantage for France. I don't think that worked out.
DER SPIEGEL: Ever since Trump moved into the White House, the German government
has been concerned that he might introduce punitive tariffs on German
automobiles. Thus far, though, he has not followed through on his threats. Is
the issue off the table?
Bolton: It's
never off the table. Trump likes tariffs, and it's something he can do without
Congressional approval. He likes that approach to international negotiations.
The real focus ought to be on dealing with the common threat posed by China,
which is stealing European intellectual property at the same rate it steals
American intellectual property, engages in forced technology transfer and
discriminates against really all foreign companies.
DER SPIEGEL: Another dispute between the Unites States and Germany is the Nord
Stream 2 pipeline project. Is this really about serious concerns that Germany
and Europe could grow overly dependent on Russia? Or is it more about business
and American hopes to sell American natural gas to Europe?
Bolton: It's a
combination of both. He talked about imposing sanctions all the time, but he
never has. I think it would have stopped the pipeline. And it's not finished
yet. It may yet be stopped. It is strategically damaging to Europe and the
United States.
Participants in the Canada G-7 summit in
2018: "I don't think Trump knows what multilateralism is."
Foto:
Jesco Denzel / Bundesregierung / Getty Images
DER SPIEGEL: There is a famous image from the G-7 Summit in Canada in April 2018.
It shows Merkel leaning on a table with Trump facing her, his arms crossed and
looking unhappy. You are standing right next to him. Can you remember what you
were talking about?
Bolton: Yeah, it
wasn't comfortable. In my recollection, it wasn't Chancellor Merkel speaking
with Trump at that moment, I think it was President Macron. But that's just an
historical detail. To me, it demonstrates two things. One, why I don't like
these communiqués at G-7 and G-20 meetings. I think maybe you cut down a lot of
trees for no particular purpose. Number two, in this instance, by forcing Trump
literally as well as figuratively into a corner, they made him very unhappy
with the whole process. Not long after that picture was taken, when we were
back on Air Force One, Trump withdrew his approval for the communiqué. It was
the first time that had ever happened. One thing I did in response to that was
to precook the communiqué for the next NATO summit in July 2018, so that there
wasn’t anything else left to decide or to negotiate.
DER SPIEGEL: You write that Trump referred to Merkel as NATO's "tap dancer,”
a term that could best be translated as a "word twister.”
Bolton: Yes.
"Tap, tap, tap, tap,” Trump liked to say. You’ll recall, even Barack Obama
said in published interviews while he was president that many of our NATO
allies were "freeloaders.” Yet in contrast to Trump, he said increasing
defense expenditures was voluntary. Trump, on the other hand, made a big point
of it and has had considerable success in increasing aggregate defense
expenditures by NATO members.
DER SPIEGEL: Will Trump withdraw U.S. membership from NATO if he gets re-elected?
Bolton: That is
very hard to predict. Right now, he’s taking a hard line on China. But if he is
re-elected, I think it is entirely possible that he’ll go right back to his
buddy Xi Jinping and try and start negotiations again on a trade deal. The fate
of Hong Kong and a variety of other subjects will
drop to the wayside again.
DER SPIEGEL: Is the president just as unpredictable for his staff as he is for the
rest of the world?
Bolton: You could
say that. After the July 2018 NATO summit, we were flying to London to meet
with Theresa May, and then on to Helsinki for the famous meeting with Putin.
Trump said to the press corps on his way out to the airport: You know, out of
all these meetings, the easiest one could be with Vladimir Putin. Who would
have thought that? The answer is: Nobody else would've thought that except Donald
Trump!
DER SPIEGEL: Will Germany and the rest of Europe have to be responsible for their
own national security and defense in the future?
Bolton: Europe
should view Trump as an anomaly in American politics. What Trump does is not a
policy, and because it doesn't reflect a philosophy, it is not going to be that
hard to get back to normal. The Republican Party believes that Europe should
not be left on its own when it comes to defense. The problem with the European
Union is that there's a lot of rhetoric about strong security policies, but not
a lot of follow through. You hear European leaders saying over and over again:
"We'll defend ourselves." If people aren't careful, there will be
others in America, like Trump, who say: "Fine, go ahead."
DER SPIEGEL: How reliable is the NATO alliance?
Related Article
Bolton: I think
the alliance remains strong. But it's a big mistake for Europe to view it as
the U.S. protecting Europe. That feeds into the Trump view of the world, that
we're defending you and therefore you need to pay us more. The fact is, it's a
mutual defense alliance. The long-term future of the alliance depends in part
on looking at suggestions such as those by former Spanish Prime Minister José
María Aznar, who said we ought to make NATO global and bring in Japan,
Australia, Singapore, Israel.
DER SPIEGEL: Has the Trump presidency damaged the reputation of the United States?
Bolton: There is
damage. If Trump loses in November, that will be a major task for the Biden
administration. But it's also up to the Republican Party to make sure that we
don't end up with another nominee like that in the future. The most I can offer
by way of consolation to Europeans or others is something Winston Churchill
once said. He said: "You can always count on the Americans to do the right
thing – after they've tried everything else." What we're doing now is
trying everything else.
DER SPIEGEL: Some Democrats are concerned that Trump would simply ignore a defeat
at the polls and remain in the White House.
Bolton: I don't
see any evidence of that. If there was, I would have put it in the book. He's
capable of almost anything. But this is an aspect of what we call Trump
Derangement Syndrome: Everything, all political analysis, is defined by Trump,
by what Trump does or does not do. Analysis stops at that point.
DER SPIEGEL: What is your greatest fear should Donald Trump be given another four
years in office?
Bolton: I am
afraid the influence of authoritarian leaders could grow in a second term.
DER SPIEGEL: You published your book in part to prevent Trump from serving a
second term. Many Americans say that if that was your true intention, then you
would have testified at the impeachment hearings.
Bolton: I don't
think it would have made any difference. The Democrats wanted a partisan war,
and they got it. To convict in the Senate after impeachment, you need a
two-thirds vote, which would have meant they needed a lot of Republican votes.
But they only got one. I think whatever I would have said in the Senate would
have been lost in the shuffle.
ANZEIGE
Titel: The Room Where It Happened: A White House
Memoir
Herausgeber: Simon & Schuster
Seitenzahl: 592
Autor: Bolton, John R.
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DER SPIEGEL: Following the publication of your book, Trump said that if you had
had your way, the U.S. would be involved in several wars by now.
Bolton: (laughs)
That is the kind of juvenile comment that, in my view, demeans the office of
the presidency. I'm just not going to respond to it.
DER SPIEGEL: How should you be viewed? Are you a hero who left office because of
his convictions? Or are you a traitor taking revenge for being fired, as Trump
has claimed?
Bolton: The fact
that the president has made that kind of argument proves my point. I have been
involved in American politics and government since I was 15. I handed out
leaflets and rang doorbells for Barry Goldwater in 1964 …
DER SPIEGEL: … the Republican presidential candidate that year.
Bolton: My
philosophy has been consistent since then. I have served in four Republican
administrations in a senior capacity. With all due respect, the media
controversy will dissipate in 50 years. The players will be gone from the
scene. The book will still be there.
DER SPIEGEL: Is there a chance that Trump will win the election in November?
Bolton: Absolutely.
He's way behind now – in large part, because of the coronavirus pandemic and
the economic consequences. But the polls in 2016 showed him behind as well.
There was a universal consensus on Election Day, including in Trump campaign
headquarters, that he was going to lose. In my view, we should never
underestimate the ability of the Democratic Party to blow an election.
DER SPIEGEL: Mr. Bolton, thank you very much for this interview
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