AUSLAND
BORIS JOHNSON
„Putin is getting more Nato, not less“
Stand: 04.03.2022 | Lesedauer: 19 Minuten
Von Stefanie Bolzen, Antonello Guerrera, Rafael de Miguel
Der britische Premier Boris Johnson empfängt zum Interview in der Downing Street
Quelle: Martin U. K. Lengemann/WELT
In an exclusive interview, British Prime Minister Boris Johnson explains why Russia‘s leader is doubling down on Ukraine, the need for a common European energy strategy and why he won’t talk about Northern Ireland.
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At two o’clock on Friday morning Prime Minister Boris Johnson received a call from Volodymyr Zelensky, alerting him of the attack on the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant. A few hours later, the Prime Minister received correspondents of German WELT AM SONNTAG, Italian La Repubblica and Spanish El País in Downing Street. Johnson started the interview with a statement.
Boris Johnson: So in the middle of the night, I was woken because poor Volodymyr Zelensky was extremely concerned about what was happening at the nuclear power plant Saporischschja. And he rang me to say something that I agreed with profoundly, which is that an attack on a nuclear power plant or an explosion at a nuclear power plant are clearly a matter of our common European health and safety. Our security is equally involved, equally jeopardized by such an attack, because we remember what happened with Chernobyl, the radioactive clouds spread over the whole continent, and indeed, I think went to North America. As far as I can remember. There is clearly a risk. And although the incident has been contained and the IAEA says there’s no excessive radioactivity, I am concerned about how we stop a disaster because there are other Ukrainian plants and there are certainly other Ukrainian radioactive nuclear waste sites. One of the things we need to consider is how we’re going to work together to prevent such a disaster. And I don’t think the answers are easy, but we need to work on it.
We need to work on it urgently. I want to say that one of the reasons why Putin has, I think, miscalculated so badly in this appalling war is because he underestimated a couple of things, and he underestimated badly the willingness of the Ukrainians to fight and to defend their territory, their belief in their country, their love of their country. I think he misunderstood the character of the Ukrainians and of their resolve, and I think he underestimated President Zelenskyj as well. I think he’s been extraordinary, but he also underestimated Western unity. And the governments of all the countries represented around this table have really worked together very effectively to produce a package of economic sanctions that has had a very considerable effect on Russia. And I think for the first time we’re seeing a genuine impact on the Russian economy. The fall of the ruble has been considerable. The rise in interest rates is clearly punishing for ordinary Russian consumers, for people. And the effect on the stock market which has been closed, I think, for days. And just simple things like not being able to use Apple Pay to get on the Metro. All these are starting to mount up.
And the message I want to get over to everybody is that the UK will continue to work flat out with our European friends every day, every hour, to make sure that we intensify where necessary. And I think the package has already been very strong. There’s plainly more to be done with sanctioning some banks, with tightening Swift. With coming down harder on some individuals, and we want to make sure that we graduate and we intensify because it feels to me as though Vladimir Putin has decided to – and it’s clear from what’s happening –, that he‘s decided to double down, and he sees no way out of the cul-de-sac that he’s in except to continue with the destruction, the pulverizing of innocent populations, in innocent European cities. So we will have to respond together with an intensified package. I also want to thank and to congratulate other European governments, all of whom have now really stepped up to the plate in delivering support for the Ukrainians and support for the Ukrainian right to self-defense. And we must not accept the narrative of Vladimir Putin that this is about him versus Nato or him versus the West.
That is not the case. This is about his irrational and catastrophic attempt to crush an innocent country and the legitimate right of the people of that country to defend themselves and the legitimate right of other European Peoples to support their resistance. That’s what it’s about.
WELT AM SONNTAG: You commented on what went on last night. And you also mentioned the risk to European cities because of what is going on in the Ukraine. So after what happened last night, is a nuclear war or a nuclear incident closer or more likely?
Johnson: I think we need to distinguish very sharply between two things. And I think the whole question of a nuclear exchange, as it were, the use of nuclear weapons, this is a distraction from what’s happening in Ukraine, which is, I’m afraid, of a brutal and barbaric attack on innocent people. And I don’t think that we should be sidetracked by some of the rhetoric that we’ve heard. The issue is to do with the safety of nuclear power plants and nuclear waste. And this came up when the Russian troops encircled and captured Chernobyl. And we were all very worried then last night, plainly, President Zelensky was extremely worried about what was happening at Saporischschja. And he said that he thought that the plant was – which might not be correct – in the possession of Chechen Guerillas and that they would do something very irresponsible. So I’m concerned that we work together to think of ways in which we can avert that disaster, because as I said, I do think that this would be a pan-European disaster. And I think the legitimate concerns of all European countries are engaged.
WELT AM SONNTAG: You mentioned the Chechens. It looks like there are mercenaries trying to kill President Zelensky. Are you concerned about that?
Johnson: I am very concerned and I think that President Zelensky has been heroic, and I think he has risen to the challenge in a way that has earned him the admiration of the world. And I think his people are very moved by the way he’s conducted himself. I think his own personal safety is a matter of huge importance, and I think that everybody has to do everything that we can to help him. But plainly there are very sinister and powerful forces that want to try to compromise that safety. That’s a tragedy, and those who are behind that must be held to account.
WELT AM SONNTAG: How can we protect the nuclear plants and Zelensky?
Johnson: I think that the answers are very difficult. I think that we have to make clear to the Kremlin that a civilian nuclear disaster in Ukraine, another Chernobyl, is a disaster for Russia as well as for everybody. And therefore, I think that some system of protecting those plants, some system of ensuring that radioactivity levels are monitored by international authorities like the UN and the IAEA on the ground in Ukraine. This is going to be extremely important.
WELT AM SONNTAG: Defense Secretary Ben Wallace said that Putin had gone “full tonto”, implying the idea that he’s just gone crazy. Do you agree with that? Is this a cold-blood strategy, or, as you just said, he’s in a cul-de-sac, and he’s in a desperate and probably nervous state of mind.
Johnson: I think he’s very difficult to read into, to make a window into his soul, and to try and imagine what he’s thinking, really. Like you, I get all sorts of information about the way his government works, the system or the non-existent checks and balances in his system, the arbitrary way in which he’s able to make decisions, and that’s extremely worrying. But I think the issue is that he’s clearly made miscalculations. I think he’s probably a lack of real feel, for what, what life and was really like for people in Ukraine and how people in Ukraine really feel about their country. It’s possible that he hasn‘t been there for quite a long time, as I’m sure all of us have. There was a logical problem, because I knew that the Ukrainians would fight and anybody who’s been there would instinctively have understood that. Maybe he’s allowed himself to become out of touch on that issue. Now he’s made that mistake. There has to be a way out, there has to be solution that doesn‘t involve the total destruction, or him continuing on this path of total destruction. But I’m afraid, logically, it’s very, very hard to see what that solution is. That’s why I’ve come to the conclusion that he must fail.
WELT AM SONNTAG: French President Emmanuel Macron is the one leader who is still talking to Putin. Do you think that this is a good thing? We assume what you hear from the French President makes you very concerned?
Johnson: I think that the unity of the West has been one of the most important things. Before the invasion began, we were working together with Emmanuel to understand what the implications would be. It is very, very important that we continue to work, particularly with the Americans to have a common series of assumptions and priorities, about the conflict. The lesson of history from, you know, 1914, to Bosnia and beyond is that, sadly, the most wretched European conflicts are not solved without some measure of American interest and leadership. That’s going to be very, very important as well.
WELT AM SONNTAG: So is it good that Macron is still talking to Putin?
Johnson: I think it’s important that the unity of the West is preserved. I’m sure that Emmanuel is not diverging from that unified position.
WELT AM SONNTAG: Prime Minister, you said that Putin must fail. But shouldn’t he also fall by losing power, to end all this? How can the West make it happen? Should we, as West, encourage the Russian opposition to revolt?
Johnson: Number one: I think it’s absolutely vital that there are two things we must frame strictly. We must not be trapped into framing this as in any way a conflict between the Russian people, or Russia, and the West, or even between Putin and Nato, or Putin and the West. That is not what this is about that. So that’s one category we must not fall into. This is about helping the Ukrainian people to protect their themselves, to protect their lives, their families and their independence. Number two: I think it’s very, very important that people see that this is the sum-total of the agenda. There is no further agenda. We can’t think like that. Events in Moscow or Russian politics are simply unforeseeable. In fact, that would be a total, a total distraction. Let me be very clear: this is not about trying to do anything to shorten the political career of anyone in Moscow. On the contrary, this is about simply trying to protect the people of Ukraine, and give them the help that they need. If we think in that way, we will damage our chances of achieving what we need to do.
WELT AM SONNTAG: You said in the House of Commons that Putin was a war criminal. Should the West aspire to put this war criminal in front of an International court, like Milosevic in The Hague or like the Nuremberg trial?
Johnson: What I certainly believe is that there is a close analogy between Putin’s behavior and the last years of Slobodan Milosevic. It’s very interesting that both leaders had been in power for a long time, both increasingly autocratic, both seeking to shore up their domestic position, and found a great nationalist cause. Slobodan Milosevic identified the birthplace of Serbian nationalism, indeed the Serbian nation, in Kosovo Poljie, and he inspired his people with this misbegotten idea that it needed to be rescued and liberated. There’s a very close sort of analogy between that catastrophic mistake, and what the President of Russia has been saying about Kiev and the origins of Russian religion and culture and civilization and his objectives in Ukraine. When it comes to the International Criminal Court, that’s a matter for them. There would have to be the gathering of evidence. If there is evidence of the use of illegal munitions, cluster bombs, barrel weapons, this clearly will have to be brought Netherlands.
WELT AM SONNTAG: Who is going to enforce that?
Johnson: I think we must be quite limited in what we’re setting out to do. Because I’ve never seen in a long time, such a clear difference between right and wrong in international politics, or such a clear difference between good and good and evil. The minute we start to introduce all sorts of other political considerations in Moscow, or whatever geostrategic considerations, then we lose the sharpness and the focus.
WELT AM SONNTAG: As you said, Milosevic wanted Kosovo, the final target of Vladimir Putin is Kiev because of the very origin of the Orthodox faith – but Ukranians will not allow it. What is the future for Europe in that situation?
Johnson: I think you put your finger on the nightmare that we face. That is correct. When I say that Putin must fail, I think there is a sense in which he has already failed. That miscalculation about how Ukrainians feel about their country now makes it impossible for him to make this misbegotten adventure, this invasion, into a practical success of any kind. But, you know, it is not for us to try to find the way forward for him. That’s something he will have to think about. What we can do, is do our level best – as European countries are doing is really moving and impressive - is help the Ukrainians and continue to apply economic pressure.
WELT AM SONNTAG: People like Garry Kasparov are already talking about genocide in Ukraine. You ruled out a no-fly zone the other day in Poland, because it would be a very dangerous, direct confrontation between the West and Russia. But how many deaths and brutality from Putin can we allow? What is the red line until we act as the West?
Johnson: I don’t think anybody would have imagined a few weeks ago, that so many European countries would now be following what the UK did, and sending weapons in the way that they are. I don’t think anybody would have imagined that Olaf Scholz would have made a speech like the one he did. And that Germany would be in the position that it now is. Things are changing. And that’s because of people’s outrage and disgust of what is happening in Ukraine. So what I’m trying to say is that the West has already moved a long way. And it’s very, very united. But it is still a long day’s march, as they say, to the idea of any kind of direct confrontation between Western forces. Between UK, Italian, German, Spanish armed forces and Russian forces. And the reason for that is that the consequences of such engagements would be very, very hard to control and to manage. We wouldn‘t know where it would end. And the risks of miscalculation are huge. We have to keep a boundary, we have to keep a conceptual boundary in what we’re doing. That doesn‘t mean that we don’t care passionately, or that we won’t do everything that we can within the parameters that we’ve set to try to change the odds in favor of the victims. And we will try to change the odds in favor of the victims. But I think that there is no... Let me put it this way: There is no Western country that I know of that is currently considering sending combatants to that theater of conflict. That’s just the reality. And I think that it’s not on the agenda.
WELT AM SONNTAG: So the no-fly zone is still no option?
Johnson: I think the problem with the no-fly zone is just that. It does logically entail the shooting down of Russian planes. And, again, you’re locked into a logic of confrontation.
WELT AM SONNTAG: The Ukraine crisis, in some sense, has mended many wounds and many broken relations between the UK and the European Union. Would you say that? After all that happened after Brexit?
Johnson: I think what all crises do is they reveal the true relationships. Sometimes, if a family goes through some big trauma, then the real strength of the affection between the members of the family and the way they work together can sometimes suddenly be revealed again. And I think that’s probably what’s happening now.
WELT AM SONNTAG: So we will you not be talking about Article 16 in the next months?
Johnson (laughs): Since you bring it up… Look, you really want to ask about it? I will tell you that, in all sincerity, I think that it is something that we could solve with goodwill and common sense. But we can’t go on with a system where, you know,… It really feels pénible to be talking about this subject now. But I will, if you insist.
Boris Johnson mit den drei Journalisten Rafa de Miguel (El País), Stefanie Bolzen (WELT AM SONNTAG) und Antonello Guerrera (La Repubblica)
Boris Johnson with the three journalists Rafa de Miguel (El País), Stefanie Bolzen (WELT AM SONNTAG) and Antonello Guerrera (La Repubblica)
Quelle: Martin U. K. Lengemann/WELT
WELT AM SONNTAG: No, no… Let me ask one more question. Do you think all EU countries should now stop buying any gas and oil from Russia?
Johnson: So this is incredibly difficult. And it’s important that we in the UK do not seem to preach to countries that clearly have a massive reliance on Russian hydrocarbons. It’s not just in Germany and Italy, all European countries have some dependence. We buy some, but it‘s much less than we used to, but we still buy some, I think that we need a collective European strategy and a Western strategy to diversify away from this dependence. And I think that listening to Olaf (Scholz) it’s clear that he agrees with that. And I think that there will be a program. And there will be a timetable. And it won’t be easy. But there are other sources. There are in North America and Canada. In the Gulf. There are ways of doing this. And there are ways in which we can work together to produce more renewables. It’s not easy, and our electorates will find it tough. But I think that in every disaster there is an opportunity. And I think that collectively, we need to move away from it and not to be beholding that. And I think that that is probably the view of the majority of the European governments now and a growing proportion of the electorate, even if it’s a difficult transition.
WELT AM SONNTAG: The US and Canada will be joining EU military projects as a third country. With Russia’s war on Ukraine, will the UK also consider this kind of cooperation?
Johnson: The last few weeks have shown that Nato is stronger than ever, and it’s so important and that far. More relevant than ever. When we go to Estonia or Poland just this week, you feel it there. They want Nato. Putin has not only miscalculated regarding the people of Ukraine, but he miscalculated if he thought he was going to get less Nato by invading Ukraine, he’s actually getting more Nato. Nato is going to be closer, they’re going to be bigger. Defense spending is going up. So he’s ending up with the exact opposite of what he wanted. And Nato is the format for that, because it has a command structure and UK troops can be placed under Nato commands and they’re all coordinated. So the UK would not want to go and explore an alternative to something that already exists, that works, that has clear lines.
WELT AM SONNTAG: What about the UK’s Indo-Pacific strategy? Is Europe now the centre of security interests?
Johnson: We’ve always said that we are hugely committed to the Euro-Atlantic security. That’s why we’re the biggest contributor to Nato in Europe. So even with the importance of the Indo-Pacific, European security has always remained at the center of our security, and we’re really seeing that now.
WELT AM SONNTAG: What role does China need to play in the conflict?
Johnson: I have not spoken to Xi directly in recent weeks, but we obviously do have contact with the Chinese on all levels. So that continues. I think what the last few days are showing, including with the UN Security Council, with the General Assembly, is that this isn‘t about Europe. This is about the world. This is about right and wrong. It’s about principles of the international order. So we do need China to be on board with condemning that, same as we need Australia and New Zealand and fJapan being some of the strongest countries on this, despite the fact it doesn‘t affect their neighborhood, because this is about bigger things than that.
WELT AM SONNTAG: Why have there been no British sanctions on Roman Abramovich?
Johnson: None of us wants to live in a country where the state can take your house off you without a very high burden of proof and due process. There’s no point say, yeah, we’re going to go after him, and then you come up against the brick wall of lawyers. So we have to get it right. And we’re also trying not to just make this about one individual. Top line of what our package a week Monday is that the measures that you have against individual oligarchs in Europe will essentially allow us to catch them, too. Plus the extra things that we are doing that Europe hasn‘t caught up with, or is not prepared to do, like on Swift.
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